Is Clingmans Dome, TN the Highpoint?

[Mark Chapman]

Does anyone know for sure that Clingmans Dome is the highpoint of Tennessee and if so, how? The mountain itself is in both TN and North Carolina but the peak is clearly in NC. Using the USGS map found at: https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/70048223 one can easily see this and the elevation is 6643 ft. The contour lines represent a 40 feet rise or decline so the possible highest point in TN is somewhere between 6600 feet and 6640 feet according to the USGS map. Mount Guyout's peak (found on the same map, follow the state line north) which is clearly in TN has an elevation of 6624 feet. Is it possible that Clingmans Dome is not the highpoint of TN and Mount Guyout is?

[nartreb]

An actual highpointer will probably chime in, but the first thing that comes to mind is that you have to be a bit cautious in interpreting the state borders as drawn on maps.

North Carolina gave up claims to its western land (which later became Tennessee) in 1789. The border was described in plain English, as running "along the extreme height" of the mountains. It wasn't fully surveyed until 1819, and even after that, there were disputes about exactly how it crossed some valleys (North Carolina v Tennessee, 1914), but as far as I can tell that description is still valid today.

So most likely, the border is at the summit of Clingman's Dome, at 6643 (or whatever it really is after landscaping for the tower), just as the highpointing lists say, and it's the border that's incorrectly drawn on the map.

[McCannster]

Im not sure that map you linked is the most accurate. I more trust an actual USGS Topo map like this one:

http://www.mytopo.com/maps/?lat=35.56269&lon=-83.49863&z=15

This map shows the stateline pretty much crossing the summit itself, right under the lookout tower. A quick sweep on Google Earth shows the summit at an elevation of about 6666 feet, well on the NC side. The elevation on the TN side of the summit shows about 6651. Obviously this does not match up the the "official" elevation of the mountain (6643 ft), so you gotta take those Google Earth readings with a grain of salt.

I would imagine the original surveys put the stateline running over the actual summit.

[nartreb]

I think the USGS published a new map around 2001, showing a smaller area inside the 6640' contour. This smaller contour was roughly concentric with the one on the older map, but the border shown on the map didn't quite evenly bisect the older one and, since the new map didn't redraw the border, the border as drawn merely grazes the newer, smaller contour.

[Mark Chapman]

Thanks to all for the answers. I agree, my confusion is due to an improperly drawn border between TN and NC on almost all maps!

[Mark Chapman]

Puma concolor,

Thanks! I think the key words are "nearly certain". I also thought of this possibility but I would think to claim reaching the "highpoint" we would need to be certain. If the border in the map is correct, Clingmans Dome on the TN side may not reach an elevation above 6624 feet. Let's hope it does otherwise a lot of folks may be missing a highpoint but that could be a positive, another challenge!

[surgent]

It would appear that if the map shown in Puma C's post is "exactly" right, then all of us who have summitted Clingmans Dome via the footpath shown on the map would have walked the path where it nicks the state line and would still be able to claim having visited Tennessee's highest point.

But yes, be suspicious of boundaries that run along mountain ridges that seem to be composed of many little straight lines. While the legal description of the boundary may say "along the highest ridge", the surveyors may have measured every few hundred feet, and then software connects the dots, so to speak.

Older maps seem to be better at rendering boundaries. Newer maps not so much. I have noticed that newer maps will sometimes take data from the NAD-27 datum, and re-map them in the WGS-84 datum, which usually means an eastward shift, so that boundaries that once ran along a ridge now for some reason run consistently about 300 feet east of the ridge.

Almost all USGS topo maps use the NAD27 datum, and GPS receivers the WGA-84 datum.

[Marlin]

Don Holmes' "Highpoints of the United States" (2nd revision) lists Clingmans Dome, elevation of 6,643', as the high point of Tennessee. If I remember correctly, the AT passes very close to Clingsman Dome.

EDITED: I corrected the elevation.

[Mark Chapman]

Surgent,

That would be true if that spot on the TN line is higher than Mount Guyout's 6624 feet which we don't know. But I believe the map comments regarding the boundary saves the day.

[surgent]

Surgent,

That would be true if that spot on the TN line is higher than Mount Guyout's 6624 feet which we don't know. But I believe the map comments regarding the boundary saves the day.

I agree...

I was there in 2000, and someday would like to go back, but not under the "need" to redo a state HP.

[Mark Chapman]

Puma concolor,

My wife and I haven't done SC, TN, GA, KY, or VA highpoints yet. I am thinking about grouping the first three in one trip and the second two in another trip. This September we are going to ascend OH, MI, WI, MN, PA, MD, and WV highpoints in that order to add to our other six (MO, NE, IA, IN, NC, and SD). Adding MT Guyout to the KY and VA highpoints would be something I may consider. There is no trail to the peak of Guyout so that would mean bushwacking. There is a benchmark there though. I was thinking about trying to organize a trail build off the AT to the Guyout peak. I have never done anything like that but it seems like a pretty good project, at least in my mind! If you're interested, let me know. I am new to this web site so I am still learning how to use it.

Mark

[Bark Eater]

The simple answer is that the HIghpointers Club maintains the official list, and Clingman's Dome is the official highpoint. Please don't go cutting or even marking trail in any park without full engagement and permission of the proper authorities (which is usually nearly impossible to get). You can wind up with major fines or even worse. There are volunteer organizations that help maintain existing trails. That's a nice place to start!

[Mark Chapman]

Bark Eater,

Actually, according to the Highpointers Club newsletter "Apex to Zenith", second quarter 2016, Issue #113, page 11, the HP Club uses the USGS "Elevations and Distances in the United States" found at: https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/70048223 as their official HP list. No worries about me creating any rogue or unauthorized trails. I would only do it once I had obtained permission from all applicable stakeholders and I would prefer to do it as part of a group.